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 Post subject: MMP review
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:17 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:30 pm
Posts: 484
As pointed out here (linked), the MMP system is under review. The final deadline for submissions is 31 May, but submissions must be made by 5 April for a chance to present to the Electoral Commission in person. Several issues are being considered, including, of relevance to the Pirate Party I think, the 5 percent party vote threshold.

On this, the report 'Towards a Better Democracy' that led to the initial referendum on MMP stated:
The Royal Commission on the Electoral System wrote:
We have proposed adoption of a threshold of 4%...
We are persuaded that if no threshold is set or if it is set too low, the operation of effective government would be very likely to be frustrated. ... could give rise to a proliferation of small parties with few seats in the House. The adoption of an appropriate threshold is a key element in our proposal, and we would view it as clearly undesirable to have no threshold. ...
On the other hand, we view a 5% threshold as too severe. ...
Complete removal of the threshold is therefore, I think, highly unlikely. However, I suspect that the Commission may have been thinking of many small parties having a vote in parliament when they were concerned about the operation of effective government (i.e. forming a stable coalition government), but a vote in parliament is not the only role that an MP performs. They also act as a representative and advocate for their voters in parliament. They can put across their voters' views in debates, and they can relay back to their voters what is happening in parliament (and they get paid to do this as their full-time job). I therefore wonder if we could ask that there is no threshold for getting MPs into parliament, but only a threshold for them having a vote in parliament.

Having an MP in parliament, even if they didn't have a vote in parliament, would still be very good for us, I think. And dammit, we deserve it, and I can't see a good reason not to do it.

What do others think? Is this a sensible thing to ask for (i.e. beneficial and plausible)? Should the Pirate Party make a submission on this?

Should we ask any other minor parties if they would be interested in helping to draft a joint submission? These are the registered parties (those with lists) that didn't make it into parliament:
  • Conservative Party
  • Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party
  • Democrats for Social Credit
  • Libertarianz
  • Alliance
Are there any parties I've missed? Can we ask everyone on board? (The more the merrier, is my feeling.) Do we want to exclude any that some people object to? (I suspect we may end up excluding all this way.)

How would we organise this? Form a committee including a member from each party?

Any other thoughts? Dumb idea?


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 Post subject: Re: MMP review
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:55 am 
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james g wrote:
As pointed out here (linked), the MMP system is under review. The final deadline for submissions is 31 May, but submissions must be made by 5 April for a chance to present to the Electoral Commission in person. Several issues are being considered, including, of relevance to the Pirate Party I think, the 5 percent party vote threshold.

I suggest either no threshold, or 2 percent if one is really required. Even if that means the conservatives buy their way in to parliament, then so be it.
james g wrote:
On this, the report 'Towards a Better Democracy' that led to the initial referendum on MMP stated:
The Royal Commission on the Electoral System wrote:
We have proposed adoption of a threshold of 4%...
We are persuaded that if no threshold is set or if it is set too low, the operation of effective government would be very likely to be frustrated. ... could give rise to a proliferation of small parties with few seats in the House. The adoption of an appropriate threshold is a key element in our proposal, and we would view it as clearly undesirable to have no threshold. ...
On the other hand, we view a 5% threshold as too severe. ...
Complete removal of the threshold is therefore, I think, highly unlikely. However, I suspect that the Commission may have been thinking of many small parties having a vote in parliament when they were concerned about the operation of effective government (i.e. forming a stable coalition government), but a vote in parliament is not the only role that an MP performs. They also act as a representative and advocate for their voters in parliament. They can put across their voters' views in debates, and they can relay back to their voters what is happening in parliament (and they get paid to do this as their full-time job). I therefore wonder if we could ask that there is no threshold for getting MPs into parliament, but only a threshold for them having a vote in parliament.

Not when you consider all the morons from stupid parties would also get representatives.
james g wrote:
Having an MP in parliament, even if they didn't have a vote in parliament, would still be very good for us, I think. And dammit, we deserve it, and I can't see a good reason not to do it.

What do others think? Is this a sensible thing to ask for (i.e. beneficial and plausible)? Should the Pirate Party make a submission on this?

Should we ask any other minor parties if they would be interested in helping to draft a joint submission? These are the registered parties (those with lists) that didn't make it into parliament:
  • Conservative Party
  • Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party
  • Democrats for Social Credit
  • Libertarianz
  • Alliance

[list=]
[*]Buy a vote party
[*]Crazy potheads party
[*]Communists for a ruined economy party
[*]Anarchy for the 1% party
[*]Unionists party[/list]
james g wrote:
Are there any parties I've missed? Can we ask everyone on board? (The more the merrier, is my feeling.) Do we want to exclude any that some people object to? (I suspect we may end up excluding all this way.)

How would we organise this? Form a committee including a member from each party?

Any other thoughts? Dumb idea?

Exclude the lot of them on the basis that they are mostly lunatics, except for the plutocrat conservatives, who shouldn't get any free policy off of our ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: MMP review
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:10 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:30 pm
Posts: 484
kiwipeso wrote:
I suggest either no threshold, or 2 percent if one is really required. Even if that means the conservatives buy their way in to parliament, then so be it.
Since the report I quoted above raised concerns about the stability of government with such a low threshold, I think this is unlikely to be recommended, whether or not it actually is a good idea.

kiwipeso wrote:
Not when you consider all the morons from stupid parties would also get representatives.
Unfortunately the only way to distinguish between stupid ideas and good ones is to listen to them first. If we exclude minority ideas on the basis that they might be stupid, we could end up excluding good ideas too, like ours.

kiwipeso wrote:
[list=]
[*]Buy a vote party
[*]Crazy potheads party
[*]Communists for a ruined economy party
[*]Anarchy for the 1% party
[*]Unionists party[/list]
  • Yeah, the Conservatives had a lot of money to spend, and this allowed them to get their message out, but people could (and most did) still choose not to vote for them.
  • Alcohol is a class B equivalent drug (Sellman 2009), whereas cannabis is a class C drug, and like alcohol prohibition, cannabis prohibition doesn't work (Lenton 2000), so I don't think being in favour of cannabis being legal is necessarily more crazy than being in favour of alcohol being legal.
  • Yeah, I'd agree on this one. Although I think student loans are essentially a form of social credit, and I think student loans are a good idea, so I think social credit does have a useful role to play, albeit a somewhat smaller one than the Democrats believe. I actually think a little more social credit might even be beneficial. e.g. maybe offer something similar to student loans to up and coming musicians to help their careers without them having to do deals with record companies.
  • On what moral basis can we exclude from the discussion people who generally oppose government spending? Aren't these also people whose money is being spent?
  • Employers generally have more power than ununionised workers, and unions create a more level playing field in this regard. Eliminating unions essentially eliminates power struggles by eliminating the power from one side, thereby leaving the other side to dictate terms. I am given to understand that the gap between the 1% and the 99% that you allude to above has widened considerably since the fall of unions, and that this may be no coincidence. Are compulsory fees to democratic unions morally much less justifiable than compulsory taxation to democratic governments (which you chide the Libertarianz for opposing)?

kiwipeso wrote:
Exclude the lot of them on the basis that they are mostly lunatics, except for the plutocrat conservatives, who shouldn't get any free policy off of our ideas.
I would have plenty to disagree with most of the above parties on. In the eyes of the majority of New Zealanders though, I'm not sure we'd be considered much less lunatic. And if we did a joint submission with all of them, I don't think many people would take it as meaning that we agreed with them on much. The thing is that there are over 1,000 submissions to date, and I doubt many of them will get much more than a cursory glance, whereas I think that if we managed to get a joint submission, it would be more likely to really be considered. Also, if we're only aiming for a voice in parliament for parties that don't reach the threshold, not a vote (which, as I stated above, is all I think we could plausibly achieve), then no-one is getting any free policy, rather we're only getting the opportunity to present our case. Each party would then have to make the case for their own policy. And I think we have a case to make.


References

Sellman, JD; Robinson, GM; Beasley, R. (2009) Should ethanol be scheduled as a drug of high risk to public health? Journal of Psychopharmacology 23(1), pp. 94-100.
<http://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/content/short/0269881108091596v1>

Lenton, S. (2000) Cannabis policy and the burden of proof: Is it now beyond reasonable doubt that cannabis prohibition is not working? Drug and Alcohol Review 19, pp. 95-100.
<http://www.responsiblechoice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Cannabis-policy-and-the-burden-of-proof.pdf>


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 Post subject: Re: MMP review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:10 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:30 pm
Posts: 484
I've drafted something (below). What are people's thoughts on making a submission, on the draft I've suggested, and on asking other political parties if they would be interested in collaborating?


We recommend no threshold for parties obtaining seats in parliament, but rather a threshold for parties having a vote in parliament.

The Report of the Royal Commission on the Electoral System 1986, which first recommended the adoption of MMP included this passages in its introduction:
Quote:
1.6 The critical question now is about the fairness and equality of the ways in which the votes of New Zealanders, at the national rather than the constituency level, are turned into representation in Parliament and into the establishment of a Government. (...)


The Report then lists 10 criteria for judging voting systems, of which the following are the first and second:
Quote:
(a) *Fairness between political parties.* When they vote at elections, voters are primarily choosing between alternative party Governments. In the interests of fairness and equality, therefore, the number of seats gained by a political party should be proportional to the number of voters who support that party.
(b) *Effective representation of minority and special interest groups.* The voting system should ensure that parties, candidates and MPs are responsive to significant groups and interests. To facilitate this, membership of the House should not only be proportional to the level of party support but should also reflect other significant characteristics of the electorate, such as gender, ethnicity, socio-economic class, locality and age.


The inclusion in MMP of a threshold compromises these principle in denying fair and equal representation. The Report justifies this as follows:
Quote:
2.190 (...) The choice of a 4% threshold is designed to provide small parties with a reasonable chance of gaining seats while discouraging the proliferation of minor and/or extremist groups in the House. (...) In recognition of the special status of the New Zealand Maori population, and of the relatively small number of Maori votes, we have proposed that no threshold apply to parties representing Maori interests. This waiver could be extended to parties representing other minority ethnic groups, such as Pacific Islanders, if this was thought desirable.

2.191 (...) We are persuaded that if no threshold is set or if it is set too low, the operation of effective government would be very likely to be frustrated. On current voting numbers (...) the absense of a vote threshold would give a first seat in the House to every party recording around 25,000 votes. We think this is too low and could give rise to a proliferation of small parties with few seats in the House.

The former paragraph appears incongrous and self contradictory. It first seems to promote exclusion of minority groups for its own sake. This is not a criteria for judging voting systems put forward in the Report, and is in fact in direct opposition to the first and second criteria. It then suggests possible exceptions on the basis that inclusion of at least some minority groups may be desirable (besides Maori, for which an explanation is given).

The latter paragraph perhaps provides some explanation for this, in referring to the need to satisfy another criteria for judging voting systems, specifically:
Quote:
(g) *Effective government.* The electoral system should allow Governments in New Zealand to meet their responsibilities. Governments should have the ability to act decisively when that is appropriate and there should be reasonable continuity and stability both within and between Governments.


If the exclusion of minority groups from parliament is not an aim of the threshold, but rather a byproduct of the aim to promote effective government, then this is more understandable. However we think the complete exclusion of minority groups is a more extreme measure than is necessary to achieve this goal. Specifically, we don't think it is necessary to exclude minority groups from having seats in parliament, but only to exclude them from having a vote in parliament, in order to allow the formation of a stable government.

Further, we think the exclusion of minority voices in parliament compromises another of the stated criteria for judging voting systems, specifically:
Quote:
*(h) Effective Parliament.* As well as providing a Government, members of the House have a number of other important parliamentary functions. These include providing a forum for the promotion of alternative Governments and policies, enacting legislation, authorising the raising of taxes and the expenditure of public money, scrutinising the actions and policies of the executive, and supplying a focus for individual and group aspirations and grievances. The voting system should provide a House which is capable of exercising these functions as effectively as possible.


In further discussing this criteria, the Report states:
Quote:
2.47 Many of the submissions made to us were critical of the way in which our Parliament operates (...) Insofar as the unhappiness relates to the system, it appears to be based largely on a public perception of petty bickering coupled with a misunderstanding of the valuable role performed by the Opposition in testing Government policies. The adversarial role of the Opposition as an alternative Government is an important factor in keeping a Government accountable to the people and is enhanced by the 2-party polarisation characteristic of a plurality Parliament. In our view, those who denigrate our system underrate the value of both Parliament and elections where competing ideas and policies can and should clash and be evaluated. (...) We record, however, that a constant theme in the submissions made to us was the strong desire for a process which is less adversarial and more consultative.

We believe that giving minority groups a fair and equitable voice in parliament, even if they do not also have a vote, would better serve to test Government policies and keep governments accountable to the people, better allow competing ideas and policies to be put forward and evaluated, and better allow for consultation.


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 Post subject: Re: MMP review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:45 am 
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i thought it was already past the deadline to submit? I might be wrong, when *is* the deadline?


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 Post subject: Re: MMP review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:13 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:30 pm
Posts: 484
Pervach wrote:
i thought it was already past the deadline to submit? I might be wrong, when *is* the deadline?
There was a deadline of 5 April for being able to present the submission to the committee in person, but the general deadline is 31 May (I think). [EDIT: Yup, here it is <http://www.mmpreview.org.nz/why-review>]


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 Post subject: Re: MMP review
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:35 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:30 pm
Posts: 484
I wonder if this is worth including:
Quote:
(...) what a small party leader called New Zealanders' typically Westminster "left versus right tribal instinct" that polarizes issues into exactly two sides while de-legitimizing everything else endures relatively intact under MMP.

Cody, H (2003) Early lessons from Mixed-Member Proportionality in New Zealand's Westminster politics. The New England Journal of Political Science Vol. 1, No. 1, pp. 24-51.
<http://www.mmpreview.org.nz/sites/all/themes/referendum/resources/Cody%20article.pdf>


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 Post subject: Re: MMP review
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:31 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:38 pm
Posts: 42
I got in my submission in time (by ONE MINUTE!) to do one in person to :D

I said abolish the threshold entirely, plus a bunch of other stuff.

But yes, PPNZ totally should have done a written one too.


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 Post subject: Re: MMP review
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:01 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:30 pm
Posts: 484
David wrote:
I got in my submission in time (by ONE MINUTE!) to do one in person to :D

I said abolish the threshold entirely, plus a bunch of other stuff.

But yes, PPNZ totally should have done a written one too.
We still can, we just can't present it in person.


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 Post subject: Re: MMP review
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:33 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:30 pm
Posts: 484
David wrote:
I got in my submission in time (by ONE MINUTE!) to do one in person to :D
I had a quick look for your submission, but (perhaps not unexpectedly) there were a lot of submissions just before the deadline for presenting in person (including several Davids). Not sure which was yours, but while looking I noticed a submission by the ALCP <http://www.mmpreview.org.nz/submissions/full/aotearoa-legalise-cannabis-party>. I guess other minor parties may well have made submissions too, so I guess it's too late to think about a joint submission. I think a submission by the Pirate Party still has merit though.


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