It is currently Sun May 26, 2013 4:08 am


All times are UTC + 12 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: No other party is even questioning unique identifiers on bal
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:10 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:07 am
Posts: 45
Only the Pirate Party takes privacy seriously:
No other party is even questioning unique identifiers on ballots!


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: No other party is even questioning unique identifiers on
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:03 am 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:15 pm
Posts: 339
Location: Hamiltron
Matt wrote:
Only the Pirate Party takes privacy seriously:
No other party is even questioning unique identifiers on ballots!


Except that I'm not convinced that the are an issue either; there is a process in place to ensure that the ballot is still effectively 'anonymous' and scrutineers from all parties can observe the process.

One of the things those scrutineers can observe is that the bardcode exists only to deal with potential voter fraud, and there is no routine matching of barcodes to voter names during the normal count.

The UHDR article 21 (3) says "The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures."

I'm glad we've had a discussion on this, I even bought it up with some of the other candidates during the election, but I am not convinced that there is really a problem.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is the Pirate Party necessary?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:11 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 pm
Posts: 31
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
A good argument against my question: http://falkvinge.net/2012/04/09/we-are-winning-how-pirate-parties-are-changing-the-world/

_________________
"Test everything. Hold on to the good." -Paul of Tarsus


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: No other party is even questioning unique identifiers on
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:55 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:07 am
Posts: 45
zcat wrote:
Except that I'm not convinced that the are an issue either; there is a process in place to ensure that the ballot is still effectively 'anonymous' ...

Every government and it's private sector profiteers are willing to assure you that there are processes in place to ensure that everything will be just fine.

zcat wrote:
...and scrutineers from all parties can observe the process.

It is an unsolved mystery why scrutineers have to be appointed by a few parties that are unwilling or reluctant in assisting volunteers. And even then restrictions apply and electoral officers are trying to discourage prospective scrutineers. Why isn't the counting process public for everyone to observe? Maybe you should just start looking a bit closer or ask a party if they would appoint you to scrutinize yourself. Maybe then, but only if you question the processes, you could find other problematic dealings like private sector entities conducting elections for profit, security stickers that are not tamper proof, electoral storage and counting locations with unclear/questionable access policies, uninterested JPs that show up late if at all to only read newspapers while on duty, JPs not being required to having electoral expertise or training in order to perform their role, neither the relevant minister nor the DIA holding information about the systems used by the electoral officers and so on and forth ...

zcat wrote:
One of the things those scrutineers can observe is that the bardcode exists only to deal with potential voter fraud, ...

… that could also be dealt with effectively by other means or why is New Zealand the only country in the world having unique identifiers on ballots?

zcat wrote:
... and there is no routine matching of barcodes to voter names during the normal count.

As mentioned before:
Outsourced elections conducted for profit observed by biased scrutineers without expertise/training and undocumented counting systems all "enhance" the feeling of security and integrity.

zcat wrote:
The UHDR article 21 (3) says "The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures."

The general principles of human rights evolved into the UDHR but the covenant containing binding commitments is the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR):
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/ccpr.htm

“PART III
Article 25
Every citizen shall have the right and the opportunity ... (b) to vote ... by secret ballot, guaranteeing the free expression of the will of the electors;"


While New Zealand has not incorporated the ICCPR into law, it took measures to give effect to many of the rights contained within it by passing the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act in 1990. The right to vote in elections by secret ballot can be found in Section 12(a) under Democratic and civil rights and there is no provision for equivalent free voting procedures:
http://legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/whole.html

"Part 2
Civil and political rights
Democratic and civil rights
Article 12
Electoral rights
Every New Zealand citizen who is of or over the age of 18 years (a) has the right to vote ... by secret ballot;"


zcat wrote:
I'm glad we've had a discussion on this, I even bought it up with some of the other candidates during the election, but I am not convinced that there is really a problem.

We already had enquiries from a number of people about the possibility that they could end up on some sort of government surveillance list if they would join. There are people that refrain from voting because there is the possibility of their "secret" vote being intimidated. This poses a risk that applies to our voters but similarily to members/voters of other parties that promote currently illegal activities e.g. file sharing. So why should the other candidates be concerned when it is not even their parties' policy?

When I spoke to members of the Piraten Partei Deutschland, which I am also a member of, they couldn't believe that unique identifiers on ballots are standard and unquestioned in New Zealand.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is the Pirate Party necessary?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:37 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:10 pm
Posts: 48
Location: Ōtepoti
Kia ora koutou

Christopher Wood wrote:
>> A good argument against my question: http://falkvinge.net/2012/04/09/we-are- ... the-world/ <<

Falkvinge makes an interesting comment in that article:
>> We failed to convert these votes into votes in the general elections a year later because of a very simple reason – that we didn’t have a full political platform. Answering “we have no opinion on that issue” for nine out of ten policy questions wasn’t good enough. People wouldn’t vote for parties that didn’t, not in a general election, and there was no way the Piratpartiet could expand its policies by the necessary magnitude between the 2009 and 2010 elections. <<

This would actually seem to support Christopher's argument that building a 'Bright Green wing' of the Greens is more politically realistic than running as a separate party. However, there might be another way to assemble a more rounded policy platform, and build enough support to get above the 5% threshold .

I've been talking to activists from a number of other parties who have the same problem - they specialize in specific policy areas, and are made up of activists and supporters from diverse places on the traditional political spectrum. Eco-radicals, liberal leftists and libertarian capitalists are equally likely to support the Pirates, and the same is true for the Cannabis Party, which makes forming policy outside the area of commonality (eg information freedom or drug law reform) difficult. A number of other small parties struggle with similar problems. Perhaps the solution is to form a pre-election coalition, a federation of parties, allowing voters to support a number of these small parties with one vote?

Obviously, the idea of a coalition of parties campaigning for one vote is not new in kiwi politics either. The Alliance did the same thing in an attempt to break the duopoly of the two major parties under FPP. Arguably one of the lasting legacies of the Alliance was to highlight the need for MMP, which has since allowed the various constituencies that supported them to vote a number of other smaller parties into office (most notably the Greens, although the Maori Party could be seen as a successor to Alliance member Mana Motuhake, NZ First now has the votes of many conservative socialists who might once have supported New Labour etc).

Perhaps a new federation could make a similar contribution by campaigning for something they would all benefit from, the removal of the 5% threshold? Like FPP, the 5% threshold pressures people to vote for the established party they loath the least, rather than the party which truly represents their values. It acts as a damper on the formation and maintenance of smaller parties, and thereby on democratic participation, the results of which can be seen in the huge non-vote in 2011.

Probably the biggest mistake the Alliance made was to pressure its member parties to dissolve into a single party apparatus (which NewLabour and the Liberals did). This resulted in many of the member parties going their own way instead, taking blocks of members, funding, and votes with them, and the post-merger Alliance languished. Instead a federation should encourage member parties to keep their own separate memberships and organisational structures intact. Since parties can choose to quit the federation and go their own way if it doesn't work out for them, there is less to lose by giving it a try. Plus, the networked structure has the added benefits of increasing opportunities for meaningful participation, respecting diversity, and valuing resilience over efficiency (democracy is less efficient than dictatorship, but works better in the long term).

The idea of a joint force is not new in party politics. To be able to offer a comprehensive policy platform you first need to assemble a broad range of people with expertise in different fields under a common vision. Labour began as a united political wing of the unions, and the Greens, when they reformed as a separate party outside the crumbling Alliance, began as a sort of coalition of various activist networks, as you can see from the first crop of Green MPs:
Jeanette Fitzsimons + Rod Donald - Values Party
Ian Ewen-Street - organic agriculture
Sue Bradford - workers and unemployed rights
Sue Kedgley - safe food + toxics awareness
Nandor Tanczos - drug law reform and restorative justice
Keith Locke - peace and anti-surveillance

What's new is the idea of playing politics as a win-win game, rather than sticking to the I-win-you-lose philosophy inherited from the bad old days of FPP. Is the Pirate Party necessary? Yes. Can it achieve parliamentary representation by itself? Not yet. Is there an alternative to giving up and lobbying the Greens? Not that educating the Greens about PP issues is a bad idea (both/ and), but yes! Federation.

_________________
"Pirate happiness depends on peace and quiet, and of course, gardens in the backyard"
Skip, 'Royal Envoy II'


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is the Pirate Party necessary?
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 5:14 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:09 pm
Posts: 9
I see the Pirate party expanding into other places too, such as e-govt (everyone sucks at that) and bioethics (under the patent guise (and everyone sucks at this too)).

Also, I'm here because the other parties are disagreeable in some way to me. So nyeerrrrr.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is the Pirate Party necessary?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 11:12 pm 

Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 10:55 pm
Posts: 1
Not everyone who opposes New Zealands stance on copyright protection ans internet privacy agrees with the Greens hard-left economic policy.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is the Pirate Party necessary?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:00 am 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:40 pm
Posts: 56
Location: Germany
The Pirate Party in Germany has gone far beyond just digital rights and has set course for social justice (for example an unconditional basic income and free public transport) and election reform - as ex spokes person Marina Weisband pointed out - when the Pirate Party is successful in establishing grass roots democracy then political parties, the Pirate Party included, will be superfluous.

We will work with the Greens and any other political party whose policies are in line with ours and the Greens have a lot that are but not the fundamentals.


Andrew

_________________
Sicut es unda


Top
Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC + 12 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Theme created StylerBB.net